Elecciones presidenciales 2020

[Manuel]

Lo acabo de poner hoy durante el desayuno. Ya sé que está abierto aún el plazo de votación... pero he estado varios días dudando sobre si ponerlo, y cómo hacerlo.
No quiero iniciar una guerra de flame, pero me sorprende que no se haya preguntado por las cuentas durante las elecciones, que por otro lado me parece que pasan intencionadamente desapercibidas.

No sé, el préstado de decenas de miles de euros a fondo aparentemente perdido me parece a mí un tema suficientemente grave, qué queréis que os diga. Lo menos que puede hacerse es dar suficientes explicaciones, creo yo.

Me expongo a señalarme como "elemento disruptor", "mal compañero", "hater irredento", o yo qué sé... He intentado ser lo más aséptico y respetuoso posible, pero tampoco me parece que el silencio hasta que el tema se olvide sea correcto.

[dreamscreator]

No sé, el préstado de decenas de miles de euros a fondo aparentemente perdido me parece a mí un tema suficientemente grave, qué queréis que os diga. Lo menos que puede hacerse es dar suficientes explicaciones, creo yo.

Yo creía que la NAF hacía de aval para el venue pero no que diera un dinero a fondo perdido. Si es verdad que este año la organización del mundial ha sido un desastre en todos los sentidos, incluido el económico.

[kevindez]

How about:
1. You all elect me.
2. I make Pako Vice President.
3. I resign.
:

After this brave afirmation I officially support Gaixo for NAF prez and hoy should too!!!

Ya tiene mi voto, Ou yeah!

[kevindez]

Por cierto, se vota aquí:

https://member.thenaf.net/index.php?mod ... ctionid=11

[Manuel]

No sé, el préstado de decenas de miles de euros a fondo aparentemente perdido me parece a mí un tema suficientemente grave, qué queréis que os diga. Lo menos que puede hacerse es dar suficientes explicaciones, creo yo.

Yo creía que la NAF hacía de aval para el venue pero no que diera un dinero a fondo perdido. Si es verdad que este año la organización del mundial ha sido un desastre en todos los sentidos, incluido el económico.

Eso es lo que habria que clarificar, en mi opinión.

[Manuel]

En fin, te respondo yo mismo.

No fue un aval. Fue un préstamo sin condiciones. Un "ya me devolverás lo que puedas cuando puedas, pero intenta devolverlo todo, ¿vale?".

Huelga decir que no se espera que puedan devolverlo todo. Yo lo que pregunto es si la gente tiene derecho a saber esos números.

[dreamscreator]

Las cuentas de la NAF tendrían que ser totalmente transparentes. Una asociación así debería mostrar un documento trimestral con todas las cuentas.

A mi ese tema me parece bastante más serio que si se bajan o no los pantalones ante GW. Que es un tema que por el Mediterraneo pica bastante pero que me da que en muchos otros países no le dan mucha importancia.

[Viyullas]

Las cuentas de la NAF tendrían que ser totalmente transparentes. Una asociación así debería mostrar un documento trimestral con todas las cuentas.

A mi ese tema me parece bastante más serio que si se bajan o no los pantalones ante GW. Que es un tema que por el Mediterraneo pica bastante pero que me da que en muchos otros países no le dan mucha importancia.

Totalmente de acuerdo.

[Pakulkan]

Hola chicos y chicas,

Yo podría poner una chapa inmensa pero si queréis saber mi opinión, hay un topic en el foro de la NAF con la candidatura que presenté en su momento y mis propuestas. Es una auténtica pena que lo que en su momento vislumbré, se esté cumpliendo. No hacía falta ser adivino ni más listo que la media, solamente tener sentido común y espíritu crítico.

La NAF no ha sabido encontrar su sitio, vive y ha vidvido siempre de un ranking obsoleto y de regalar dados de placaje. En el momento en que los dados se han esfumado, le queda el ranking al que cada vez presta menos atención todo el mundo.

No han sabido adaptarse a la gestión de GW del juego. Cuando a mí Lycos me tumbó por decir que tenía "vía de comunicación directa" con GW. Una falacia, pero una que se creyeron muchos.

No han capitalizado los fondos que tienen. Se han conformado con seguir invirtiendo en regalitos y poco más, basándose en la gestión de buena fe de miembros para actualizar rankings, etc. Cuando podrían haber hecho una inversión en recursos (Apps, Web, etc.) para los jugadores.

Han apoyado cero a los torneos. Una copita NAF para torneos que hacen 5€ de descuento a sus miembros (lo que puede suponer, en un torneo de 40, 200€). Ya se propuso hacer trofeo de pintura, al subcampeón... Y poco a poco construir un "tournament pack".

Ha habido SIEMPRE una gestión oscurantista, con las mismas personas en los mismos cargos, y cuando éstas personas han "salido" se les ha buscado acomodo. Porque mucho me temo que más de uno se ha pagado viajecitos con los fondos NAF.

Unido a esto, en su momento hice un cálculo de las altas a la NAF hasta que se publicaron las chorricuentas (porque se publican unas cuentas de mierda que no aportan nada) y los números no cuadraban... Ni de coña.

Al final, por todo esto, la NAF es una organización que se muere, y se muere porque así lo han querido sus gestores y la gente que ha votado, así que por mí que les den y que disfruten. Todos aquellos que han entrado en la NAF y han querido cambiar algo, han salido rebotados.

Yo fui candidato a presidente y quedé segundo, jamás se me tuvo en cuenta en ninguna decisión posterior. Eso sí, en la Bilbali 18 les di la idea de la actualización de reglas anual y mira qué bien ha ido...

En fin, que me sale la bilis. El resumen: de aquellos polvos, estos lodos. Nadie tiene derecho a quejarse.

[Purplegoo]

Hiya Pako, I hope you're well?

I'm staying out of the presidential election, I don't think it's cool for me as TD to say too much. I think there are some fair questions being asked here / on the NAF site, and I hope that the Spanish community will be involved with electing our president. We have a lot of passionate members in Spain, and I'd love for you guys to feel involved.

I'm not going to comment on lots of your last post because you're entitled to your opinion and I'm not sure it'll be wise to open old arguments. I am interested in a couple of your points, though.

I can assure you that I / we speak to the Specialist Game chaps at GW (we are sanctioning GW events, they have been allowing us use of various bits in tournament documents, relations are good. I say they are 'good' - I know some elements of the Spanish community think they're too good and we're too deferential, I think they're about in the right place), and yes, we adopted the Annual Review concept that Manuel and yourself were passionate about a couple of years ago. So with that in mind, I'm interested how you think we have failed to adapt to GW's management of the game, and Google Translate seems to indicate that you don't think the Annual Review has been good. Could you elaborate a little for me, so I understand?

While my Spanish is terrible, I do try to pop onto this forum as often as I can. I would like to get more of our tournament docs translated to more European languages, perhaps a job for 2020.

Cheers, and see you soon.

[Pakulkan]

Hi,

Probably Google Translate is not the best option to debate. I will try to clarify.

Major concern about NAF and its future is a long track record of reactivity and not proactivity, even perhaps paralysis. This implies so many missed opportunities to engage community and failure to become a reference in Bloodbowl as a game.

Regarding my own involvement in the NAF, I have had many different and upsetting experiences, so far my opinions are totally biased, but it is worthy to note that the NAF also discouraged several other players that previosly tried to work on perform changes in the organization.

About this particular topic, I just suffered what I would politely call "not totally fair" conditions in my Presidental election. I should in that time ask (to the Vice Prez, which is by itself indicating how conflict of interest is surrounding the entire organization) for moderation in the NAF Forum, being accused to create fake accounts, being accused to break GW relationships (which were demonstrated, were no existing at all), etc.

This is only informative about the reluctancy of the "old guard" to leave. And my suspicion is that this reluctancy is somehow related to a "suboptimal" management in the first years of NAF life.

Everything is bad? Not at all.

I concede there are changes, Gliko rankings, Annual report, etc. All of them are very welcomed and well executed as well. But probably they came too late to stop community disband.

The NAF is not perceived as necessary neither as a real support for community. How to solve this is a real challenge for the future President. My concrens were expressed many years ago and include:

- True support to tournaments that are effectively promoting NAF membership through sensitive discounts in the fee to NAF players (Spain is 5€ on avergae, so far, two NAF tournaments make NAF membership worthy the money). Probably a real "tournament pack" including several trophies in the way the NAF trophy is.

- Investment of the resources in real improvements. NAF is giving World Cup money (no comments about auditing, probably after Austria would be necessary), but at a certain point someone said there is too risk in to invest EUR 30k in perform activities (new website, etc.).

- Management of the rules. I really appreciate that you took into account Manuel and my own suggestions, but this decission would be necessary from the very beginning. It is better later than never, but it is an indication of how much NAF is reactive and slow in its management.

- Absence of the NAF as a real player in BB. Games Workshop is taking into account the NAF in any way? Does NAF have information about releases? Has the option to summarize rules? This is certainly the most difficult point, and probably nothing could be done, but for me (personally) is really frustrating to see how the NAF-GW relationship was an argument for Lycos re-election and afterwards it was demonstrated an absolute failure.

The NAF has a long track record of discouraging changes. As an static organization, is suffering from that behavior. Train already leaved for me (and many others). But hope you could re-take the good direction. Serously doubting about that.

Hope it would clarify my opinion.

[Purplegoo]

Thanks for that clarification, Pako, I appreciate you taking the time to post.

I can't comment on what happened before becoming TD as I was on the outside, but I'm glad you're happy we're moving in the right direction, tournament wise, even if it's too late in your opinion. To answer your points as I best understand them (and I might not be the best person to answer all of them, sorry about that):

- On the 'tournament pack', I will bring this up at our next committee meeting and write back to you here on what is said. I think this was discussed before I joined the committee (Nate may be able to give more detail) and it was decided that multiple trophies would be too expensive / too much complexity to send around the world and for staff to distribute, but let me catch up on that and give you a proper answer.

- Investment of NAF funds is always a hot topic, isn't it? I think I'm right in saying that we've invested > £20 k on website maintenance over the last three years (some before me, some after). Lots of that was fixing broken bits (imagine if the website broke, we'd be in trouble then), but we've also added new features like variant support (Sevens, Dungeonbowl, etc.), automated rankings refreshes, etc. Every quote I've seen for a new website has been more money than we have, and as you mention, we have recently loaned the World Cup and the Amorical Cup (North American version of Eurobowl) some money for setup costs, etc. So it's always a difficult area. You see we have EUR 30 k, spend it! But hang on, we need a few k here to keep the website working, some money for the World Cup, some for Canada, it's time to buy gifts... The amount of 'free cash' we have is always smaller than you may expect. 2019 accounts are due soon, so keep an eye out for that for more detail on finances.

- On rules management, when BB2016 began, the NAF had a position (basically, immediate reaction). When I became TD, we went the Annual Review route. So we've always tried to manage rules, but perhaps not to your satisfaction.

- The GW question is difficult. We have ~3500 active NAF members. GW probably sold hundreds of thousands of BB2016 boxes. We are small fry. The relationship is good in that we are allowed to use certain IP items in our rules docs. and we help them with sanctioning tournaments, but there is no formal GW / NAF rules link. GW write the rules, the NAF decides if they're OK for tournaments; that's how that works. I would say that the relationship has improved over the last 2 years and all is friendly, so I am hopeful that things improve still further. 'Watch this space' is not a satisfying answer, but it's all I can give at the moment.

All I see around me on the committee is people that care a lot doing a good job and working hard to make he NAF all that it can be. I am sorry that you have lost faith, but I hope whoever the committee is from next Monday can work to get you back onside. I absolutely care about that - and I hope I do my bit in coming here and talking to you, taking on new ideas like the Annual Review, etc.

Anyway. Thanks again for the explanation.

[Gaixo]

I just find it disheartening that you ("you" meaning Spanish Blood Bowl, but also you two in particular) have given up on the NAF.

- I don't know if you've seen the numbers that Sann just posted on the NAF forum, but Spain is the second-largest nation in terms of membership.
- Manuel had a seat on the committee and I wanted him to keep it.
- I would have legitimately loved to have Pako as my vice president, and would have made up a different title for him if he had preferred to help out in some other way.

My point is that you all have the power to change the organization if you want to. Just run someone for every office, every time, until you have enough of your own people on the committee to create real change. Viyullas called me a coward, but I'm the one that's been doing my best to reform this organization for the past 6 years, and without much advice or assistance from the revolutionaries of the world.

I feel like I was always forthright with Spain, even when you made my life difficult, and that's because I really do love your corner of the community. Once I'm gone and the committee looks much like it did in 2013, I think you'll notice the difference.

[Pakulkan]

As Purplegoo noted, I am more than happy to help and propose ideas like Annual review. However, now I have a huge workload (working in R&D funding and as associate professor at the university) and a complex real life on top.

I feel this is not my time to join NAF, as said, my perception is totally biased and probably not constructive enough to be inside.

Saying that, Nate you know that if help is needed, you could certainly ask spanish community in providing so.

[Manuel]

I just find it disheartening that you ("you" meaning Spanish Blood Bowl, but also you two in particular) have given up on the NAF.

- I don't know if you've seen the numbers that Sann just posted on the NAF forum, but Spain is the second-largest nation in terms of membership.
- Manuel had a seat on the committee and I wanted him to keep it.
- I would have legitimately loved to have Pako as my vice president, and would have made up a different title for him if he had preferred to help out in some other way.

My point is that you all have the power to change the organization if you want to. Just run someone for every office, every time, until you have enough of your own people on the committee to create real change. Viyullas called me a coward, but I'm the one that's been doing my best to reform this organization for the past 6 years, and without much advice or assistance from the revolutionaries of the world.

I feel like I was always forthright with Spain, even when you made my life difficult, and that's because I really do love your corner of the community. Once I'm gone and the committee looks much like it did in 2013, I think you'll notice the difference.

Hi Nate!

I'm glad reading you here. I appreciate your words and am thankful for your job these years. As you know, I would have prefered a more autonomous stance in terms of rules (the NAF keeping the CRP as the main rulebook, or editing a LRB with its own experienced players) than what we have had, but I don't blame you. I get it that you have to deal with different sensibilities, and that there are people in the committee more keen to yes-saying to all GW produces. All things considered, I think it is good that rules are annually reviewed ... even if the document provided is not one that can be used a rulebook.

That being said, there are some thoughts that I have about the current spanish BB scene, that may be (or not) extrapolable to other nations. I will try to be as succint and precise as my English allows me. No harsh feelings against anyone behind these words:

1) Age. We have seen our demography go older and older. I was one of the youngest players when I started, and I am now almost 32 and still among that category. People get married, have children, lose their jobs or simply die. Many real life problems grab our attention and we reach a point when we "don't want to spend any more intellectual effort in this questions, if in the end the NAF will simply look for GW's approval". It's a mixture of helplessness and irrelevance and when you have more urgent things to think about, you just don't want to complicate your life any more.

2) Economics. This is related to the previous point. As age increases, so does our solvency. We organize some tournaments with nice menus included in the price, and I am the first one that enjoys them. However, this is not the norm in Spain, and I am glad that most of our tournaments try to keep their prices as low as possible. More than 20 € is usually considered "expensive". I know that is not the case outside of our borders. We have to think that it is very difficult for teenagers or students to afford a travel to another city, eat something, and of course staying overnight. I have always said that we should look for people between 14 or 20 years as our main source of new blood.

In addition to this, most of our citizens remember very well the last economic crisis, and some still suffer its effects. Our income is way lower than that of our neighbours from the north, or those overseas.

With that in mind, when the NAF decides to organize a World Cup in one of the more expensive countries in Europe, in a venue that costs... ufff... better not thinking about that... The same goes for the NAf Championship, in Nottingham. I have enjoyed it very much 3 times, but I remember very well that people were surprised by the low amount of spaniards there, given our total numbers. I talked about that in the committee, and I remember saying that putting a 50 pounds ticket for just 1 mini and some sandwiches was too much, when added to the other expenses. I suggested looking for cheaper venues (following Bilibali's or Reva's examples, which manage similar number of players)... and the answer that "that tournament had a caché that had to be manteined", or something similar. So we have to play BB in a place where medical congresses are arranged, right. (You didn't say that Nate, I remember that aswell).

And after that, when people read that both the World Cup and many NAFC's have been economically "saved" by the NAF because they weren't able to manage the finances properly (while insisting in keeping said caché), it is very comprehensible that they feel that distance increased. To me it feels like ANOTHER rescue to the banks, and the least one can feel is some anger. No Bilbali nor Reva have ever asked for 1 single cent to the NAF, as far as I know. And the size of the event is not a valid argument, as I already have stated that many NAFC faced similar issues.

With that type of mentality not only does the NAF deterr teenagers from attending, but also whole nations ¬¬. And the first step in getting people involved is having them playing together. If the main tournaments are not able to gather someone's attention, it is difficult that person will keep his interest in taking part in that community.

3) Lack of faith in the system. I think that our particular national identity is very mistrustful about any distant autority. That may explain some of our past (and recent) political history, but also explains part of our distance to the NAF as an organization. We do not have the impulse (nor the need, this is a game after all) to start a revolution, but we simply turn our backs and say "do not disturb me" and try to keep our lives as if the external autority didn't exist. In the case of real life, this leads to tax evasion in almost all services, weakness of the national identity and probably lots of corruption, but also to stronger bonds with those that we perceive as closer to us and a "carpe diem" attitude that is hard to explain to foreign people. In the case of BB, where no crime is made if we do not obey GW's dictates... It's hard to accept the NAF's will to NOT create and mantain its own rules and independence. So I guess the NAF is perceived as a relatively irrelevant collaborator with GW's authority.

4) The NAF still feels ultra UK based. Paul has hold the Treasurer position for too long. More than anyone else any other position. He has probably done a good job, but it is not healthy for an organization that kind of perpetuation, which basically feels like the power in the shadows. The know-how has to be passed on and the responsibility has to be over the shoulders of a team, not a man. His good relationship with GW headquarters almost nullifies any independence aspiration for the NAF suggested in the committee. I like him very much, by the way. He is very nice and a polite person. I have a good relationship with him, but for the sake of NAF's administrative health, someone else should take that role. Some kind of limit in one's re-elections could be a healthy measure.

Uf, and I said I wanted to keep it succint. Anyway, I have nothing but good feelings for you Nate, and I really appreciate the common sense you put in the committee. These paragraphs are only my personal view of the things as I perceive them, obviously. I do not speak for the rest of spaniards.

Take care, and see you at the Patatonia ; )