Elecciones presidenciales 2020

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Re: Elecciones presidenciales 2020

Notapor Xac » Mié Abr 08, 2020 3:02 pm

Dark Duke escribió:Yo también creo que no cubrir esas pérdidas hubiera sido malo para el mundillo, por ejemplo habría hecho mucho más difícil el poder organizar el siguiente Mundial.


Creo que todo el mundo habría cubierto los gastos, eso no se debería poner en duda... lo extraño es que se haya hecho a fondo perdido y sin que los organizadores (en plural) hayan asumido poca o nula responsabilidad de sus fallos...

Si no recuerdo mal, en su día ya se comentó en torneos anteriores que el gestor fallaba más que una escopeta de ferias y se empecinaron en usar su gestor: eso es una negligencia y si supuso un sobrecoste, deberían responsabilizarse de algún modo. Diseñaron un campo no apto para desplazamientos en avión para un torneo al que el 90% de asistentes iban en avión: negligencia. Hicieron dados para construir una nueva muralla china: negligencia. Que la NAF tenga que cubrirles el culo...vale, pero que se vayan de rositas es lo que molesta a muchos.

Debemos tener en cuenta que su mala gestión puede hacer que de cara a organizar los próximos NAFWC la NAF no ponga ese primer impulso económico que para reservar espacios o hacer los primeros pagos (esos primeros 15.000€ que se les prestaron). A parte de crear un agravio comparativo es un perjuicio creado por las negligencias sin consecuencias (o con pocas) de algunos...
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Re: Elecciones presidenciales 2020

Notapor Dark Duke » Mié Abr 08, 2020 4:05 pm

Xac escribió:Creo que todo el mundo habría cubierto los gastos, eso no se debería poner en duda... lo extraño es que se haya hecho a fondo perdido y sin que los organizadores (en plural) hayan asumido poca o nula responsabilidad de sus fallos...

La responsabilidad de sus fallos sí que la han admitido; tarde y de aquella manera, pero Torsten sí que publicó una carta abierta en la que explicaba la causa de los errores que se habían producido y se responsabilizó de ellos, dejó el Comité NAF y ha asumido parte de la deuda del torneo.

El tema de la cuantía de responsabilidad asumida, pues seguramente cada uno podría tener una mejor idea en función de qué parte de la deuda ha asumido (no es lo mismo asumir 100€, que 1.000€ que 10.000€), cosa que no se ha hecho pública. Yo no tengo especial interés en saberlo, pero entiendo que otros sí que lo están por lo que estoy leyendo.
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Re: Elecciones presidenciales 2020

Notapor Viyullas » Jue Abr 09, 2020 9:10 am

A mi me quedan en el aire varias preguntas que deberian contestarse.

- Si Torsten no hubiera sido el organizador del mundial y ADEMAS estado en la directiva de la NAF se habria actuado igual?
- Dicen que esta claro que la NAF debia hacerse cargo de los costes extra generado. En caso de que hubiese habido beneficios, cual era el acuerdo? Serian para la NAF o para los organizadores?
- Porque se firman acuerdos opacos con los colaboradores comerciales? Me parece muy turbio ademas de ir contra la logica. Si quiero el mejor precio lo normal es que sea publico para que se genere un mercado de pujas.
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Re: Elecciones presidenciales 2020

Notapor Purplegoo » Jue Abr 09, 2020 11:40 am

Hi gang,

I am continuing to follow the conversation, but Google Translate often loses some nuance, and I don't want to respond to the wrong thing in the wrong way, if that makes sense?

I think Paul's accounts post and my comments above have answered some of your collective points from the last few posts, but likely not all of them. I will defer on most matters financial to Paul - if you have accounts or money questions or comments, you should absolutely go and ask him on the NAF forum. I will make sure he sees your posts.

To comment on Viyullas' quite explicit questions in his last post (I think it's quite tough to get those mixed up!):

- I / we don't know, you'd have to ask him. Again, the NAF committee and the WC organisation team are not the same thing. The committee's role I described above as 'ad hoc consultants', and from my experience, when we were asked for help or advice or made a point in a meeting, those things we advised on turned out pretty well in the end. That said, we are none of us professional event organisers, and as I said above, mistakes can be made and unknown unknowns can cause problems, even for the professionals. I am skeptical that a future NAF Committee making 100 % of the decisions for the organising team would get 100 % of the things right - we're all just human beings.

- I'm not sure we say that it's clear we should bear the extra costs generated, but Paul's post lays out the logic as to why we made the committee decisions that we made re: finances. I stand by those decisions, and I would make them again tomorrow. As I said above, one of my learnings from this experience is that future WCs should attempt to operate at a modest profit, with that profit then going to (for instance) charity after the event, if it is not swallowed by things going wrong. Paul's note also makes it clear that, in future, the NAF cannot underwrite significant event losses, and organisers will know that going in next time. So I hope that answers your question about the direction we'll go in in future and the financial situation afterwards? (Expect clear, full communication on all of this before the next WC bidding opens. Me writing my thoughts on a forum isn't a full policy!)

- For this, you'll need to ask Torsten for a proper answer. My understanding is that there are legal agreements in place, and I want to be careful not to say the wrong thing. But, absolutely, ask. Even though Torsten is no longer a committee member, I'm sure he'll answer on behalf of the WC organising team.

Before we got onto this topic of WC finances, this thread was mostly about how we as the NAF can better engage with communities like yours. I hope that above I've done some engaging and the minutes Kafre kindly translated show the direction in which we're going, but it's a two way street. Paul has often said that he very rarely gets any question or comment about the NAF accounts, and yet I read on your forum that you consider them, er, underwhelming? Engagement works both ways, and I'd love to see some of these points aired out on the NAF forum so the committee and the whole membership can engage on them.
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Re: Elecciones presidenciales 2020

Notapor Kafre » Mié Abr 15, 2020 5:30 pm

Purplegoo escribió:Hi gang,

I am continuing to follow the conversation, but Google Translate often loses some nuance, and I don't want to respond to the wrong thing in the wrong way, if that makes sense?

I think Paul's accounts post and my comments above have answered some of your collective points from the last few posts, but likely not all of them. I will defer on most matters financial to Paul - if you have accounts or money questions or comments, you should absolutely go and ask him on the NAF forum. I will make sure he sees your posts.

To comment on Viyullas' quite explicit questions in his last post (I think it's quite tough to get those mixed up!):

- I / we don't know, you'd have to ask him. Again, the NAF committee and the WC organisation team are not the same thing. The committee's role I described above as 'ad hoc consultants', and from my experience, when we were asked for help or advice or made a point in a meeting, those things we advised on turned out pretty well in the end. That said, we are none of us professional event organisers, and as I said above, mistakes can be made and unknown unknowns can cause problems, even for the professionals. I am skeptical that a future NAF Committee making 100 % of the decisions for the organising team would get 100 % of the things right - we're all just human beings.

- I'm not sure we say that it's clear we should bear the extra costs generated, but Paul's post lays out the logic as to why we made the committee decisions that we made re: finances. I stand by those decisions, and I would make them again tomorrow. As I said above, one of my learnings from this experience is that future WCs should attempt to operate at a modest profit, with that profit then going to (for instance) charity after the event, if it is not swallowed by things going wrong. Paul's note also makes it clear that, in future, the NAF cannot underwrite significant event losses, and organisers will know that going in next time. So I hope that answers your question about the direction we'll go in in future and the financial situation afterwards? (Expect clear, full communication on all of this before the next WC bidding opens. Me writing my thoughts on a forum isn't a full policy!)

- For this, you'll need to ask Torsten for a proper answer. My understanding is that there are legal agreements in place, and I want to be careful not to say the wrong thing. But, absolutely, ask. Even though Torsten is no longer a committee member, I'm sure he'll answer on behalf of the WC organising team.

Before we got onto this topic of WC finances, this thread was mostly about how we as the NAF can better engage with communities like yours. I hope that above I've done some engaging and the minutes Kafre kindly translated show the direction in which we're going, but it's a two way street. Paul has often said that he very rarely gets any question or comment about the NAF accounts, and yet I read on your forum that you consider them, er, underwhelming? Engagement works both ways, and I'd love to see some of these points aired out on the NAF forum so the committee and the whole membership can engage on them.


Hola peña,

Estoy intentando seguir la conversación, pero Google Translate a menudo pierde algunos matices, y no quiero responder a algo erróneo en el mal sentido, si es que me entendéis.

Creo que el mensaje sobre las cuentas de Paul y mis comentarios anteriores han respondido algunos de los puntos comunes de los últimos mensajes, pero es posible que no todos ellos. Tengo que redirigiros para la mayor parte de los temas económicos a Paul - si tenéis preguntas sobre el dinero o comentarios, deberíais sin duda preguntárselos en el foro de la NAF. Me aseguraré de que vea vuestros mensajes.

Para comentar las preguntas bastante explícitas del último mensaje de Viyullas (¡Creo que es bastante difícil que me lie con ellas!):

- Yo / nosotros no sabemos, tendrás que preguntárselo a él. Lo repetiré una vez más, el comité NAF y el equipo de organización del Mundial (WC) no son lo mismo. El papel del comité NAF, tal y como describí más atrás, fue de "consultores ad hoc", y desde mi experiencia, las cosas en las que se nos pidió ayuda o consejo o se hizo una observación en una reunión, resultaron bastante bien al final. Dicho esto, ninguno somos organizadores profesionales de eventos, y como ya he mencionado, se pueden cometer errores y las incertidumbres desconocidas pueden causar problemas, incluso a los profesionales. Soy escéptico en cuanto a un futuro en el que el Comité NAF tome el 100% de las decisiones del equipo de organización del Mundial y el 100% sean correctas - todos somos humanos.

- No estoy seguro de que digamos que esté claro que debamos asumir los costes adicionales generados, pero el mensaje de Paul expone la lógica seguida para tomar las decisiones del comité que tomamos e.e: económicas. Respaldo esas decisiones y las volvería a tomar mañana. Como ya he comentado, una de las cosas que he aprendido es que los futuros Mundiales deberían intentar obtener un pequeño beneficio, y que ese beneficio vaya (por ejemplo) a beneficencia tras el evento, si es que no se lo tragan las cosas que vayan mal. La anotación de Paul también clarifica que, en el futuro, la NAF no puede asumir pérdidas significativas de eventos, y que los organizadores lo tendrán en cuenta para la próxima. Así que espero que esto responda a tu pregunta sobre la dirección que vamos a tomar en el futuro y la situación económica posterior(?). (Esperad una comunicación clara y completa sobre todo esto antes de que se abran las candidaturas para el próximo Mundial. ¡Yo escribiendo lo que pienso en un foro no es una política!)

- Para esta, vas a tener que escribir a Torsten para obtener una respuesta completa. Yo entiendo que hay acuerdos legales de por medio, y quiero tener cuidado para no decir algo incorrecto. Pero, por supuesto, pregunta. Incluso aunque Torsten ya no sea un miembro del comité, estoy seguro de que responderá en nombre del equipo de organización del Mundial.

Antes de que entrásemos en este tema de las cuentas del Mundial, este hilo era sobre todo sobre como la NAF podía atraer/aumentar el apego de comunidades como la vuestra. Espero haber conseguido algo de eso con esto y que las notas de la reunión que Kafre amablemente ha traducido muestren el camino en que queremos ir, pero es un camino de dos sentidos. Paul a menudo ha dicho que rara vez recibe alguna pregunta o comentario sobre las cuentas NAF, y aun así leo en vuestro foro que las consideráis, esteeee, decepcionantes?. El apego funciona en ambos sentidos y me encantaría ver alguno de esos puntos aireados en el foro de la NAF para que el comité y todos los miembros puedan verlos.
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Re: Elecciones presidenciales 2020

Notapor Kafre » Lun Abr 20, 2020 10:48 am

Hi Purplegoo!

I have some questions regarding the NAF Committee meeting notes from march 20th. Please, feel free to answer them or not. I can also put them in the NAF forum if you think is more appropriated.

+Tengo algunas preguntas sobre el acta de la reunión del Comité NAF del 20 de marzo. Por favor, no te sientas obligado a respondertlas. También puedo ponerlas en el foro de la NAF si crees que es más apropiado.

2. Website Info (TD)
(...)Looking to update tools for Score.


I'm a blatant ignorant in this matter. What kind of tools does the NAF use related to Score?

+Soy un completo ignorante sobre el tema. ¿Qué herramientas emplea la NAF relacionadas con el Score?

4. European Engagement (TD)
(...)
+ Translations of NAF files and announcements into Italian/Spanish/French (at least to begin with). Need volunteers still.


You could post a "NAF needs you" or something like that in the different NAF social media (forum /Tweeter Facebook) or even in TBB or Italian/German/French/Etc forums. I can make a few translations in my spare time but I can't do them in a continuous base. This means I can mostly translate documents or old website posts but not the urgent announcements.

+ Podrías postear un "La NAF os necesita" o algo así en los distintas redes sociales de la NAF (foro/Tweeter/Facebook) o incluso en TBB o los foros Italianos/Alemanes/Franceses/Etc. Yo mismo puedo hacer unas cuantas traducciones en mi tiempo libre pero no puedo hacerlas de forma contínua. Esto implica que puedo hacer traducciones de documentos o antiguos post de la web pero no anuncios urgentes.

13.Final Comments (VP)
– Discussion of some communities wishing to stay with CRP rather than embrace the most recent developments. Committee determined that those wishing to do so could be granted Specialist variant tournament approval but not pure Blood Bowl approval.


‘Specialist’ does not have a bespoke ruleset. This variant exists so the NAF can accept tournament rulesets that are too specialised to be sanctioned as Blood Bowl or in one of the above categories. Examples of rulesets that would qualify as Specialist include all Stunty tournaments, tournaments only welcoming the BB2016 Golden era teams (listed in the Spike! journals) or tournaments where house rules used are deemed too unbalancing to be otherwise sanctioned. If you are considering submitting a Specialist tournament for sanction, it is best to first contact the Tournament Director for guidance.


Personal opinion: I don't know if this particular decision makes sense. The difference between CRP and BB16 is not so big to affect the ranking or it is?. Many tournaments here in Spain house rule the Piling On change and the BB16 Inducements are mostly used by underdog or weird roster teams.

+Opinión personal: no sé si esta decisión en concreto tiene mucho sentido. La diferencia entre el CRP y el BB16 no es tan grande como para afectar al ranking ¿o sí?. Muchos torneos aquí en España modifican el cambio de Aplastar y los incentivos del BB16 los usan principalemente equipos débiles o con alineaciones raras.

Questions not related to the meeting:

- Seems that the NAF posts (or stories) are now the NAF official way to communicate with its members. Is there a way to know when a Story has been published (RSS I'm looking at you) other than visiting the website I mean?
- Could you please include a way to navigate through them other that backward/foward (cloud tag)? and, related to the last one, could you improve the search by tags adding a few to some of the posts?

+Preguntas no relacionadas con la reunión:

- Parece que los posts NAF (o stories) son la manera oficial de la NAF de comunicarse con sus miembros. ¿Hay alguna forma de saber cuando se ha publicado una Story (estoy pensando en un RSS) otra que no sea visitar la web?
- ¿Podríais por favor incluir alguna forma de navegar a través de ellos que no fuera adelante/atrás (nube de etiquetas)? y, relacionado con esta última, ¿podríais mejorar la busqueda mediante etiquetas añadiendo añadiendo unas cuantas a algunos de los posts?

Now the tricky ones, related to Score/DDBB xml file:

- Is there any specification or requirement written down on how the .xml file should be composed to be submitted to the NAF?
- Nobody does it now, but what would happen if I submitted a tournament in which I have noted down the different TV for every team in every round? For instance, first round - vampires TV 120 against goblins TV 135, instead of vampires TV100 vs goblins TV100.

+ Ahora las peliagudas, relacionadas con el fichero xml de Score/BBDD:

- ¿Hay alguna especificación o requerimiento por escrito de como se debe construir el fichero .xml para ser enviado a la NAF?
- ¿Qué pasaría si enviase un torneo en el que se reflejan los distintos VE para cada equipo en cada ronda? Por ejemplo, primera ronda - vampiros VE120 contra goblins VE135, en lugar de vampiros VE100 vs goblins VE100.
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Re: Elecciones presidenciales 2020

Notapor Purplegoo » Lun Abr 20, 2020 4:50 pm

Hi Kafre! Happy to answer here, but I'll also take a couple of bits away with me and come back later. :)

(...)Looking to update tools for Score.

This is a confusing sentence, in hindsight. To elaborate, a couple of months back, we put out an advert for help with website / coding matters. I've brought together a team of the volunteers that responded to that advert, and we've set them up with some additional tools they requested (a Slack, a GitLab repository and a number of other things I don't understand because I'm not IT minded). They have a list of tasks the NAF would like them to look at for us, including the 'non-NAF 150' thing noted earlier in the thread, and also 'Score 2.0'. I did this bit of initial research a while ago, and I think we all realise that the 'perfect' tournament scoring system doesn't yet exist. So this example in the minutes refers to us beginning to look at what that perfect system could be and what we need to do to get there. We have a couple of Italian coders that appear very keen on looking at this, so we'll see how they get on. This is one of those areas where I can't help, but I'm doing my best to facilitate. Ultimately, we'll move as quickly or slowly as our volunteers take us!

4. European Engagement (TD)

I guess this part of the minutes is summarising a pretty long conversation. Your idea (advertising for help) is absolutely on the list of things we spoke about last month. As I think I said above - I'm super keen to move ahead with this whole wider engagement piece (and I'm glad that people seem happy with the general ideas above), but we are doing a little work in the background before we move forward, and obviously, Covid-19 is slowing us all up a touch, it's a nightmare getting anything done right now. We are getting there with translating our docs, and you should see progress on the other points in item 4 soon, or as soon as is practical.

CRP v BB2016

The central aim of everything we do around sanctioning is that we present the membership with 'one ruleset' and we don't have confused coaches show up to one tournament with the CRP Halfling roster and then another with the BB2016 one (for instance, there are many little changes between the two rulesets that add up over time). It's not so much about the rankings. I was keen to establish 'Specialist' last year, because I want all BB to be NAF BB, but I don't want to compromise that 'one ruleset' thing. So, if you want to have a NAF CRP, LRB4, Stunty Cup or anything else tournament, you now can. We just file you in the right place. Before, of course, I couldn't sanction these things, so I see this as progress.

- Seems that the NAF posts (or stories) are now the NAF official way to communicate with its members. Is there a way to know when a Story has been published (RSS I'm looking at you) other than visiting the website I mean?

- Could you please include a way to navigate through them other that backward/foward (cloud tag)? and, related to the last one, could you improve the search by tags adding a few to some of the posts?


These are good questions I'll bring up this weekend at our upcoming meeting. I think we need someone other than me answering them, because I'm not really very good with IT stuff, as I mentioned above. My answer would be that anything we want to say to the membership goes out via the Facebook / Twitter, but this feeds into the translation point. We likely need a Spanish Facebook to speak to Spanish coaches more effectively, for instance.

- Is there any specification or requirement written down on how the .xml file should be composed to be submitted to the NAF?

The requirement is that the file works with the website! :) I don't know what that means technically. I spend some of my time fixing Score files and .xmls so they upload, but I don't actually have a list of dos and don'ts. If you are thinking about working on a Scoring software that generates an .xml, I can find the right person to speak to that can give you some specifications.

- Nobody does it now, but what would happen if I submitted a tournament in which I have noted down the different TV for every team in every round? For instance, first round - vampires TV 120 against goblins TV 135, instead of vampires TV100 vs goblins TV100.

A small number (1-2 events a year) in Australia do this now, actually. The ELO ranking formula does recognise TV differences, so if a TV110 team beats a TV120 team, it gets more points than if it had beaten a TV110. My advice would be that you only record TV differences in progression tournaments, and actually we would rather you didn't at all. Because 'nobody' does this and the whole point about tiering and other house rules is to promote variety and encourage the lesser races, this would be a bit counter-intuitive, in that you are under-rewarding the teams / meta you are trying to promote via the final rankings. It doesn't make sense. I don't think glicko cares about TV. So - good question, but I think it's better for everyone if we have one system, and that system is 'all teams at the tournament have the same TV'.

Hope that answers everything as best I can for now!
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Re: Elecciones presidenciales 2020

Notapor Purplegoo » Vie May 15, 2020 7:29 pm

Purplegoo escribió:- Seems that the NAF posts (or stories) are now the NAF official way to communicate with its members. Is there a way to know when a Story has been published (RSS I'm looking at you) other than visiting the website I mean?

- Could you please include a way to navigate through them other that backward/foward (cloud tag)? and, related to the last one, could you improve the search by tags adding a few to some of the posts?


(Just so you know - I did bring this up. We're going to make an effort to be better with our tagging, and on the RSS point, we're going to look into it. The other stuff we've spoken about is all ticking along, but of course, the world is difficult presently.)
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Re: Elecciones presidenciales 2020

Notapor Purplegoo » Vie Sep 25, 2020 4:04 pm

Hi all,

In the previous pages, we had a long and helpful (I hope) conversation about the NAF, what the NAF means to some of you in Spain and how we could be doing more to make you feel part of the family.

Today, we completed the first phase of some activities that I hope speak to some of these concerns. Firstly, we have translated a number of our documents into numerous languages, as well as finding volunteers to translate important NAF news for us (more from this team in the future, including perhaps social media accounts in different languages, etc.). Secondly, before our NAF committee meetings, we now hold a global NTO meeting, where NTOs (in your case, hachablanca) are invited to discuss issues from their area directly with us. Of course, these lines of communication are always open, but it's a formal platform. Finally, as you may have seen from today's news, we have introduced 'National' tournaments. While these aren't Majors, from 2021, Spain will be getting a tournament every year worth double ELO ranking points, as if it was the NAFC or any other Major tournament. Again, more on this soon.

So, while I'm not claiming every problem is solved and all is well, hopefully you can see that we're making progress. More discussion to come, I'm sure, as well as more to be done.

Thanks,

Phil.

(I would Google Translate this - but it never seems to go well!)
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Re: Elecciones presidenciales 2020

Notapor El_Nota » Mar Sep 29, 2020 10:15 am

Nice news, pretty interesting 2021 if the virus lets us play. Thanks for posting this news

****

Buenas noticias, interesante 2021 nos espera si el virus nos deja jugar. Gracias por postear estas noticias
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Re: Elecciones presidenciales 2020

Notapor Pakulkan » Sab Oct 10, 2020 12:03 pm

Sounds good and quite a necessary progression.
Hope this will increase non english commitment.
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